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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2000 4:20 pm 
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Location: Salem, OR, USA
Personally, I would like to keep this idea alive. I suspect (Phin) that evereyone who has some interest in it has been too busy spending their time making tracks. Image
OK, I'm guilty of that, but I'd be glad to qualify as a "non-enterer" to be a "judge" of sorts... i.e like this board, my word is my opinion. Maybe this should be more widely publicised. WK seems to have all the web nous here and KC seems to be the authority on what makes a track good. He's obviously experienced. Sounds like a good combo to me. What say peeps? Seemed like a good idea but at the end of the day someone has to do the work.
Or maybe we should just stick to the Trackshots idea for now? Sounds like a sound idea, uncomplicated and already has some precedents set.
Besides that I think I gotta good chance... heehee Image
Seriously though folks.... I think this idea needs more input, what about an announcement at KC's Phin? Or on the new improved main MTM board?
In the meantime I will try to think of something constructive and go to the Zone just to reiterate what a crap racer I am!
Image
MCedit: didn't see your or WK's input before I posted this, oops (or Twighlight Zone theme)
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Keep on Monster Truckin'

EmceeMart

[This message has been edited by EmceeMart (edited 21-03-2000).]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2000 10:35 am 
Glow Ball
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>>Are we settled ;-) on there being no prize other than the virtual trophy

Yep, pretty much.

>>Are we settled on the idea of letting some respected non-competitors judge the contest?

Nope. Not a bit of it. More below.

>>Create a website devoted exclusively to the contest, 'owned by nobody' and promoting everyone involved? (I like this.)

Remains open for me.

>>What about the rough idea for scoring (points) system

The game is subjective. A points system biases what a winner will be like and hardly allows for creativity to creep in. You cannot categorize creativity. In the past, we've used many judges as a way to embrace differences. An eclectic panel provides the most objective method. I'm leaning toward repeating that here.

>>What about multiple entires by the same individual?

Screen shots, yes; tracks no (one per). If you get one shot at the trophy, you try harder and put more into it.

>>Can MTMG provide the upload service for entries? (domains are sure handy ;-)

yes.


>>Technical guidelines:

>>Shall we require the track continue seamlessly from one edge of the terrain to the other?

I don't see that as a necessity. Width is our point here. Let's not over-do the constriants.

>>Six terrain squares as the outer limit of drivable surface?

Believe it or not, I was thinking ten. Would you settle for eight?

>>Scrap the map? (no loss of points for an ugly map)

Nope. Maps are part of good tracks. I wouldn't want to encourage people to disregard the map as unimportant. The map must exist and work. Prettiness is not the issue, and there should be none of those funny triangles.

>>EmceeMart said: I'd be glad to qualify as a "non-enterer"...I say: no way! Your judging abilities... are not the issue, hehe, we need you in the competition!


I was open to MC judging, but you argue a good point.

My apologies if I appear rigid. It's for the sake of making things work in the most cooperative and friendly way. For the other contests, this kind of talk happened behind the scenes and not nearly so openly as this. Participating needn't be saddled with the burden of planning. My aim has always been an approach that offers the fewest rules and the fewest reasons for objection. Clarity is important.

Please check here.
http://mtm2.com/~mtmg/contest/expo2000/expo2000.html



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- Phineus


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2000 3:03 pm 
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-

[This message has been edited by Winterkill (edited 24-03-2000).]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2000 3:38 pm 
Glow Ball
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>>if MTMG wants to shoulder the burden for this

Not a question of want. This hasn't been going anywhere. I think it's a good idea and don't want to see it lost in waffling and vacillating.

>> it seemed unfair to 'them' what with the regular contest scheduled

Nothing scheduled. And certainly nothing regular. Two does not tradition make. Ideas that weren't even talked about yet. Agreed, this is a bit earlier than I planned. I think I was aiming for july and I had wanted to announce it last month, but the incentives for a mega deal are just not there. This here is appealing in it's "straight forward" approach.

>>we've also just lost at least three interested 'makers' to judge-ship.

actually, it's only one, and psyco was still only a maybe who might make one anyway without winning in mind. If Mal sticks to screen shots, then he's open for a track. SJ wouldn't have, he's just now finishing up another track and wouldn't have been doing it. Myself? who knows. But somebody has to step forward and oversee this thing, if it's ever going to solidify. I leave MC's choice to join judging with him. If there's no track from him at this point in time, I see no reason to exclude him on principle. I haven't added your name because I wasn't sure which way you were leaning...since the idea was yours to begin with. Like MC, it can go either way.

>>as for terain width: 10 seems way too much to me, 8 would seem acceptable,
>>but six still seems best to my way of thinking -- walk the tightrope baby ;-)

Yep, agreed, I just want to provide some latitude. Don't forget, this is a straight-a-way challenge. The crown will go to the best "straight", no?


>>> Participating needn't be saddled with the burden of planning. ...True enough, for own motives... I was trying to make this as open and educational as possible for all, seeking input from all. hence I expose my own rambling thoughts for all to see Image

Understood. and you wont hear me complaining. and I haven't shunned the message board myself. But you're a planner and a thinker and a conceiver of ideas. I suspect you wouldn't likely experience this as a burden anyway. Others just want to play the game. Again, it comes down to the premise of the exercise. For my part, I try to strike a balance between what can be gained from it and the enjoyment that can be gotten out of it, on the one hand, and recognizing the limit of the benefits with a smaller turn out and the possibility of confounding and diminishing the outcome by losing the playbook, on the other. If I may be permitted an analogy, a football game is won or lost through a series of processes and not through an open book (which you don't want the opponents to get their hands on, btw) that begins with the ideas from the coordinators, passed to the players by the coaches in the locker rooms, and finally executed with deft reflex on the playing field. Such is the ideal, anyway. A history and evolution of ideas is good, and I encourage it's understanding all the time, goodness knows we can't learn without them; my only point is that there must be a stage at which it comes off the drawing board and into some form of solid action.

Edit: nope, that's not what I meant at all. I think I tried to say that the entrants play the role of fan, the organizers are the players on the team. Attendance is very different in each case. Most fans don't stufy [would you believe "study"?] the play book.

But, that's only my rambling thoughts I welcome more imput. Also, I did not mean to usurp this from anyone. Html may come and it may go, no skin off my nose. If I've over-stepped myself, I'll back off gracefully, you can be sure.

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- Phineus

[This message has been edited by Phineus (edited 22-03-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Phineus (edited 22-03-2000).]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2000 3:44 pm 
Glow Ball
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Quote:
The drivable track part can be no more than 8 grid squares in total width (for the entire length of the course). Scenery may exceed the driving area.


We're playing leap frog here. How's that?

Btw, what do you guys think about the total width? Is 6 enough?


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- Phineus


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2000 9:11 pm 
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Location: Mississippi , USA
man i shoulda read this yesterday ... guess i will finish tonight :-)

from what i see.....

Ime stickin to judgin.... i will most likely enter a track... it just wont be up for winner consideration hehehehe

i think we should go ahead and givem 8 squares .... givem a lil freedom hehehhe

ummmm Mc dude enter this thing lol

wk u post's are tooo long... i got a short attention span

phin.. u 2 LOL
and ya know i got a few(hundred) free space places... i know i got tripod angelfire
crosswinds think i had a geocities
got xoom and prolly a few others.... hehehe

ile look more into it when i get home from school Image


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Howd that cat get under my tire?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2000 2:44 am 
Hello everyone!
Would you mind if I jump into this conversation for a moment??? I think this screenshot and track contest sounds like a very cool idea and would be a lot of fun! I noticed that there is a few messages about wether or not judges shud enter the contest....what about if one of the judges would receive an "Honerable Mention" award instead of the 1st place trophy and would receive similar recognition?? I realize its not the same as winning the "Gold Metal" but it would be SOMETHING which would be better than NOTHING....and may all of those mtmr's that submitted a track or screenshot for the contest could then in turn judge the judges work for the honerable mention...What do you think???? GOOD/BAD idea??? I dunno, but I thought it didnt seem too bad of an idea...

Just thought I wuold throw in my 2 cents....
Chachoze


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2000 3:55 am 
Glow Ball
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Quote:
honerable mention...


Excellent idea. I'm all for it. I think this was a classic case of not seeing the forest for the trees. Thanks SMR_Chachoze. Unless somebody has an objection, Honorable mention it will be. AND, in this case, the poll would be more worth while since the voters would have nothing at stake in the outcome.

At this moment, the polls show 16:5(4) and 16:2(1) in favor of screenshots and tracks, respectively. I think that's a good indicator where this is headed (remember, two disenting votes were mine when I tested the script).

Is there any unfinished business regarding the set up details?

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- Phineus

Edit: Yes, SMR_Chachoze, the door to this bbs is open for you whenever you like. Welcome to our little corner of mtm.


[This message has been edited by Phineus (edited 22-03-2000).]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2000 4:03 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2000 2:01 pm
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Sup people,

Really i believe that due to computer trucks I think we should make it from just a strait track to something like 2 straits with few turns. Thats the only way i thought of doing it, But you don't have to. And if we did something like that i think it should still stay at the 8 square max squares for a challenge.

---------------------------------------------

For the Trackshot thing I got an idea that i sorta like and sorta don't. Well i thought hold the track one first then the "Selected" track would be the winner. We don't have to do this i'm just throwing thoughts out.

K-dAwG


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2000 4:59 am 
Glow Ball
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Is a picture worth a thousand words?

<center> Image </center>



[This message has been edited by Phineus (edited 22-03-2000).]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2000 7:56 am 
easy company
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or-----?----- Image
would this be concidered legal ?

this thread is wearing out my mouse wheel Image

let me try to summarize what we have so far.

Straight track competition
1) Driveable area is to be 1 to 8 grid squares in width max.
2) Top Prize = a virtual trophy that can be proudly displayed in their virtual trophy case.
3)Judges are eligible but cannot vote for their own work. (I dont see why not being there are no real prizes of any monatary value here, heck anyone who enters a track can be a judge too)
4) Deadline for track entries, 5/31/00 11:59.59 pst
5) the screen shot contest will immediately follow, with the winning track as the subject.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2000 8:12 am 
Glow Ball
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>>would this be concidered legal ?

Why split hairs, I see no reason why a diagonal track should be deemed any different than one that runs horizontal or vertical. Diagonal is harder to edit. Good luck to the guy who tries it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>let me try to summarize what we have so far.

Straight track competition
1) Driveable area is to be 1 to 8 grid squares in width max.
2) Top Prize = a virtual trophy that can be proudly displayed in their virtual trophy case.
3)Judges are eligible but cannot vote for their own work. (I dont see why not being there are no real prizes of any monatary value here, heck anyone who enters a track can be a judge too)
4) Deadline for track entries, 5/31/00 11:59.59 pst
5) the screen shot contest will immediately follow, with the winning track as the subject.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can agree for the most part. But if it's to be free-for-all judging then I see no reason to judge at all. If you guys want a vote script, I can arrange one for you. Excuse me if I'm being picayune, but I'm beginning not to care how it goes/works.

>>this thread is wearing out my mouse wheel

and it's wearing out my patience. Please somebody take this and make it happen.


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- Phineus


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2000 8:13 am 
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I see a lot has been said since my last visit ('pute probs - can't run Corel Photopaint). It seems like this is a goer then eh? I like the honorable mention idea, thanks for your input SMR_Chachoze!

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EmceeMart


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2000 9:14 am 
easy company
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Not so much a free for all and maybe "Judge" is not the right word here, what i was thinking was that anyone is eligible to enter this "competition" and the winning track could be chosen by a vote and not a script vote but the votes would be cast via email to a trusted individule such as Phin, WK, MIYH, GB, KC etc. and the only acceptable votes would come from the persons who enter a track and members of the mtmg who do not enter.

i just wanted to come up with something that would not exclude anyone from taking part here.

has anyone started to set up a page to host the track entrants, rules & guide lines yet ?, if not i will to get this ball rolling...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2000 9:38 am 
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Howdy everyone!
Just wanted to say thax to Phineus & Company for the warm welcome and considering my suggestion a few posts earlier.....and also if anyone needs some extra help with this contest I'm available..... Image

Chachoze


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2000 4:09 pm 
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I have no objections to what you say Winterkill... I say Let's get this thing underway before we all get bogged down with rules and criteria, or should that be criterii? Image
I like the idea of the "judges" not being eligible to "compete" because - as I have stated in the past - I would hate this forum to become some kind of "mutual appreciation society". My gut feeling here is, the fact that the rest of the community will see familiar names and assume the same. I'd like this to be open to all and sundry, good and bad, newbies and experienced MTMers.
Maybe I'm stretching the point here but it may be an idea to award a special "virtual trophy" to a first-time track maker i.e. someone who hasn't had anything released before.
MTM4Fun sounds like a good basis for this competition... or showcase. When it comes to the time to judge, I think everyone who bothers to enter should deserve a mention, and if it has a specific site, all entrants get a link. Er, I hope I'm not adding to drawing this thing out. I'm as eager as anyone else to get going!
Just thinking aloud as WK would say Image.
Kdawg... you really started a big thread here!!! Heehee.
Good luck all ye who enter here!
Best wishes

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Keep on Monster Truckin'

EmceeMart

[This message has been edited by EmceeMart (edited 24-03-2000).]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2000 11:23 am 
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i started the thread but wk kinda helped it Image anyways guys i'd be glad to judge both but i guess that the sceenshots one i definately am judging. I like the idea of judges being able to put in entries seperately and I still wanna judge it.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2000 2:53 pm 
Glow Ball
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First, I'm a bit taken by surprise by the sudden change in approach here. I don't know what's up with that.

Anyway, I've updated those Expo pages to reflect the last few posts (kdawg, mc, and wk, you're in - of course ;-) However, I would like to hold off for a short time before any big announcements are made please.

EmceeMart, you speak like you're not aware of the mtmg contests. There have been two, and both produced some outstanding work. Please have a look, if you haven't already.

Summer contest

Winter contest


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- Phineus


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2000 11:20 am 
Glow Ball
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What do you guys make of this?

The first pic has the course segments laid out in an L shape - I left it open ended deliberately to see what would happen. The game wants to connect the last segment with the first, regardless of the location. The computer trucks can't follow.

<center>pic</center>

The second pic takes it to the extreme, one end of the terrain to the other, but broken in the middle so as to view the effect on the map. The trucks can run it because the end of the first meets the beginning of the next segment in the looping-cross-grid-way tracks can run. But the game's effort to connect the last to the first segment (which doesn't cross the grid) results in that ugly line.

<center>pic</center>

Then I thought what would a single short segment do? It looks like this. Simple, and oddly the computer trucks travel a straight line all the way across the grid. But this is without bumps; I don't know what they'd do with terrain to contend with.

<center>pic</center>

But maybe just include a longer segment like this. But helicopters would be a concern too. That's what prompted this experiment. Imagine wiping out someplace half way down the track, and then the helicopter takes you all the way back to the starting line.

<center>pic </center>

Just some thoughts I've had. No solutions tho.

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- Phineus


edit: removed the pics



[This message has been edited by Phineus (edited 10-05-2000).]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2000 7:09 pm 
Glow Ball
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and...

http://mtm2.com/~forum/pages/Forum1/HTML/000108.html


...this is a textbook in itself.

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- Phineus


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