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 Post subject: Rookie alert...
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2003 10:58 am 
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After procrastinating since the day the Expo began, I've finally decided to try my hand at a rookie track as per the "see how the other half lives" opportunity billing. (I had to wait till my holidays ended, see, so I could be here with but a weekend to finish it in. LOL)

Anyhow, the track I've concocted is called Silverrim Raceway, and it's an attempt at making a realistic racing circuit... this is about 60% completed, I'm done with the terraforming and course plotting and am basically just placing objects.

I'm looking for some feedback and guidance on how it runs, etc. Because I'm insane, all the road textures are custom. In trying to make an accurate racing circuit, I was planning to ring it entirely with concrete barriers (only the front straight is done at this stage)... however, I also put a lot of effort into making the terrain undulate in a realistic way (took me ages to get it that smooth) and now I now I wish I'd left it flat in a feeeew more spots... so I'm probably revising that down to "most" of the circuit. I was also going to place rumble strips on corners (like those found in CTX Speedway) to encourage people to stay properly on the black stuff, although I don't know where I can find those models (tho I could always make my own...) and I'm of two minds about whether I really want them now. I want to do something about the wind generators at the end of the straight but I don't know what (they're hard to see against the daytime sky, which is a tremendous shame). What else... trees, billboards, track pic and icon, maybe some diff music... you get the idea.

Anyway, I know I'll find plenty of help and suggestions from the experts here, so let me know what your impressions are and what you'd advise...

http://mtm2.com/~d2s/temp/SilverrimRaceway.zip

Thanks

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:12 pm 
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A very impressive first effort! You obviously know what you are doing, at every level. This is very nice. Allow me to be the first to say congrats, and welcome, and many happy returns!


>> I also put a lot of effort into making the terrain undulate in a realistic way (took me ages to get it that smooth)

That is as it should be, and well done man!


>> I was planning to ring it entirely with concrete barriers

You'd likely run out of models before you could finish, and adjusting them to fit the changing terrain at every point could prove tricky. In any event, you could consider lengthening (stretched or doubled/tripled etc) some for straight/flat sections of road, up to 128 feet long (four squares) is quite safe for good viewing,.

As for checkpoints and their well marked poles, well done, and also, consider this: http://forum.mtm2.com/viewtopic.php?t=1980

There is a cut across the grass between checkpoint 5 and 6, which seems inappropriate considering your design. I'd suggest placing all checkpoints to force people to keep their tyres on the tarmac. ;)

The road is too rough (for tarmac) between checkpoints 10 and 11.

Assign a greater weight to your cones, they tend to fly away, a value of 500 at least.

As for the textures, they're first rate, and well placed. However, you should probably fix the misplaced texture at the pit lane exit (black eats into the white line)

(opinion) The long straight is almost dull, almost too long, but added scenery should eliminate that sensation.

'ats all for now.



:!: :!: :!: :!: :!:
<B>Edit:</b>

As for the "misplaced texture", it seems that may have been a compromise situation, if that was the case, it's a perfect example of the need for the occasional single texure custom made to suit a purpose. ;)

As for barrier extension, I see there are already two sizes at work, which likely make my advice unnecessary.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:07 pm 
Glow Ball
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> I was also going to place rumble strips on corners (like those found in CTX Speedway) to encourage people to stay properly on the black stuff, although I don't know where I can find those models

you could always try ctx speedway :roll:

If it would help, I could find a link to Undeniable Crazy so you can ransack it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:39 am 
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>> You'd likely run out of models before you could finish, and adjusting them to fit the changing terrain at every point could prove tricky.

Tell me about it [uhoh]

>> you could consider lengthening (stretched or doubled/tripled etc) some for straight/flat sections of road
>> As for barrier extension, I see there are already two sizes at work

The walls are Evo models straight from Malibu's page, there's a single-square length and a six-square length. Those sizes are very unwieldly however, so I may chop up one of my own to fit between them.

>> consider this: http://forum.mtm2.com/viewtopic.php?t=1980

Ta. Ooo! I can rotate with the mouse?

>> There is a cut across the grass between checkpoint 5 and 6

Ta again. I was aware it represented an opportunity for the player to cut out a large part of track and wasn't sure what to do with it. I though that section of the track was already pretty dense with CPs, and didn't want another CP <i>on</i> the corner because it would detract from the wind generators. However, I could probably find a good compromise if I spent some time shuffling things around. The only other things I can think of are putting some big bumps or blocking obstacles on the infield to make it less attractive for players to cut across, but those represent a less reliable method than another CP and I don't want to mar my smooth hill anyway :)

>> The road is too rough (for tarmac) between checkpoints 10 and 11.

I've been finding it very difficult to get the results I want, the ground mesh is too coarse to work with easily. I didn't want it to be flat because we are, after all, driving MTs which are loads of fun to fling over lumps and bumps. On the other hand, I wanted the road surface to be realistically smooth, which is hard to do because the size of the ground squares and the levels of adjustment are large so it's very easy to get nasty creases in the surface. Anyhow, I've massaged it a little more since this and it's an improvement, though I think that's about as good as I can do.

>> Assign a greater weight to your cones, they tend to fly away, a value of 500 at least.

500 you say? Well that sounds much better. I was using values in the range of 1 to 10, lol. (What the hell is a 'pound' anyway? Isn't that something the Hulk does?)

>> you should probably fix the misplaced texture at the pit lane exit (black eats into the white line)
>> it seems that may have been a compromise situation

You are correct. I only made straights and corner sections. When I wanted a pit lane, I just fudged it using the numerous corner bits I had to hand.
I'll consider making a special texture for it, but this (and an alignment problem with the large-radius corner) are low priority...

>> (opinion) The long straight is almost dull, almost too long, but added scenery should eliminate that sensation.

Every racetrack needs a long straight where you can really get some speed up (IMO) - unfortunately the darn trucks top out almost as soon as they hit triple figures (which brings me back to the point that negotiating terrain is the main drawcard with this game). I have some items lined up to place along there (which reminds me, I've been meaning to stop by Rep Fan's and grab the billboard noone uses [:P], I better not forget again) which I hope will help alleviate the problem.


>> > rumble strips ... I don't know where I can find those models
>> you could always try ctx speedway

True dat.
The thing was, I didn't know what the model and texture names should be in order to find them... although it turned out to be blindingly obvious once I snooped through CTX with C-POD [(-:]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 12:01 pm 
Trackologist
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I certainly hope this isn't the last track you make, D2S. Man, this is one very nice piece of work. I was really shocked lol. I mean, it's not that I expected garbage, but at the same time I didn't expect to see...well, what I saw! Ok here's what I have after 3 quick laps (mind u, I'll be going back for more right after I'm done writing here lol):

I think setting the cp's no collide would be the way to go. You've negated cuts (which is a good thing for this track), made use of a pretty narrow roadway, set the the racing surface to cement (from what I can tell), which is right on target given the texture choice, and most likely (maybe lol) used default on the grass textures, which is slippery if you use shallow tires...as it should be. All of that pins the racer to the roadway, which of course, is what you were shooting for, but it also restricts side-by-side racing thru the cp's. By in large I'm not at all opposed cp's being set to collide, but in cases such as this, setting them to no collide is a concession of sorts to the racers. You know, kinda like showing that you have a little heart lol. Seriously though, such a change would definitely make this track a little more fun (and forgiving), and still provide for a pretty good challenge to all levels of racers.

Trees - HotShoe has very nice ones. Also, thanks to all the evo conversions you'll find some very impressive ones available at Mal's place.

Billboards - seeing as how ur a non-team guy, if ur going to use bb's, u might consider doing what Mouse did on Regent Nat'l Racepark - use bb's to represent a variety of teams. Then again I'm not too sure if that would mesh too well with your theme, in which case sticking to race-oriented bb's might be better.

Here are a few other minor observations:

- I think the tire model should be set to no collide and fitted with object boxes to preclude potential impact (like in that pic) with the portions you can't see. Yep, if you stay right in line with the road you'll never hit it, but trust me, people will run into in, and they'll get really...well, upset lol.

- Slight alignment snafu here - no real biggy :)

- I kinda think making use of an model of some sort here to preclude racers from exploiting the slight short after cp 6. It's a judgment call, and really the only reason I suggest it is to do away with the jumbled cp look - an aesthestics thing, ya know lol.


Very good stuff, tho man - I'm extremely impressed! :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 7:48 am 
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Thanks for the words Copey, I appreciate it!

>> I think setting the cp's no collide would be the way to go

Uh-oh. I actually have a lot of banners scattered around the track that give you even less room than the CP's (which I guess you didn't see - more below).

>> most likely (maybe lol) used default on the grass textures

Funnily enough, they're set to Grass. And the sandtraps are set to Sand! lol...

>> setting them to no collide is a concession of sorts to the racers

Part of my inspiration came from another game, V8 Supercars Race Driver, that I recently bought. This is a serious racing game, where obviously you have to stick fairly rigidly to the racing line, and that mindset has probably followed through into this track. Having the CPs as collide/no-collide is a bit of a duff point to me, because you shouldn't be running so far offline to hit them. Plus it'd be possible to cut some corners more if you could afford running through the CPs.

All that said, I do see your point. Maybe what I'll do is set the collision boxes to Complex scenery level. That way you can hit them if you want, but not hit them if you don't want, lol. Either that or I'll move the CP markers out a bit further, or set the outside ones to no-collide, or somethin'. Like I said, I was originally going to ring the track with concrete barriers, but since that's not happening I need other means to 'encourage' players to drive where and how I want them...

>> Billboards

I have MTMG ones on there at the moment, plus Rep Fan's, and the banners (MTMG, Malibu, and a composite one). I plan to repaint two or three billboards to make Expo/MTM2.COM/Rhinoseros adverts, etc. We'll see if I get around to it.

>> I think the tire model should be set to no collide and fitted with object boxes to preclude potential impact

Are you playing on Sparse scenery setting? There should be two tyres there (they're actually SirJames checkpoint models - I put two of them face-to-face to hide the checkpoint text on them), and I found last night that I'd accidentally set them to different scenery levels (I think one was Normal and the other Sparse). Anyhow, there's meant to be a second one to take up the space occupied by the collision box there, so you can actually see it, lol. As for setting up a wall or something to entirely prevent crashing straight into it... hmm, I dunno, I'll see what I can do. But I'm not into babysitting players all the way around the circuit :)

BTW, the textures are all screwed up in your pic. I've seen it too, I don't know why it happens, but it must be a conflict with some other track(s) - I can only get it if I run a certain one or two tracks before mine (that I know of)... otherwise it's fine.

>> Slight alignment snafu

It's been fixed, I thought it was a mistake with my texture set and wasn't going to bother trying to fix it (it is a first track after all) but it turns out I seemed to have missed putting down a pair of corner textures. It's seamless now.

>> making use of an model of some sort here to preclude racers from exploiting the slight short after cp 6

Also already done, I got ahold of the F1 curbing model and slapped a stack of them on just about every second corner, including that one, lol. Lining them up with the changable terrain was a pain, but they look spendid and do a good job of deterring corner cutting.

Interesting, you think that's the biggest shortcut issue on the track? What about between 5 and 6 (which Wint described above), or cutting the kink after the hairpin (I'm gonna put a big bump there, so enjoy it while you can, heh heh)? Truth be told, I only just finished shifting the CPs around to satisfy Wint's suggestions, and now you've got me thinking to start changing them all again, lol.


So, you'd seriously run races on this? My intent was to make an attractive and viable racetrack alternative to C98, which I hoped people would adopt... I'm gald to hear you like it at this stage...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 10:13 am 
Trackologist
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Hehe no thanks necessary, bud...but thanks anyway! :)

Let's see...for starters, after running it more yesterday and today I think the cp's are fine width-wise. Actually there's more room than I had originally thought (got out of my truck and measured lol). Cp 9 is a little tighter than the others, but given the terrain where it's placed, it's understandable.

The real big issue here as far as collide vs no collide is really on the turns. Without those nice hairpins you have in there Silverrim would be more of a "whoever gets out in front on the start wins" kind of track. Not every time of course, but as general rule. The hairpins and other bits of variety with respect to turns/slight altitude changes are what makes it a cut (or four) above tracks of that type. That said, it's frustrating to have your only opportunies for passing on a tight track foiled by someone forcing you into a checkpoint. Could one make a successful pass there? Oh sure - no doubt, but the percentages are not in your favor given the narrow road and slippery texture on either side; it seriously hampers the amount of workable room you have.

Having said all of that lol...if you left it as is it would still be a dang nice track - no change in my opinion whatsoever, and people would adapt, I assure you. :)

Tires - LOL man, I always run betas on sparse first, then switch to complex scenery...except for when I'm being a mindless idjit, like yesterday. I thought that was a REALLY bad model that someone tried to fashion after SJ's famous tires. Oh and hey, I think I may have given you the wrong impression here - I'm the last person in the world who would advocate babysitting racers by making the track easier. A few of my favs are PinSane, Valley of the Kings, Vulture Peak, ZooNette Euro, Black Fork, etc - all very tough tracks to master. My thing is you should only hit that which you can see - period. In days gone by I know it was status quo to have invisible portions of models jutting out, and racers simply had to be aware of that and not cut em too close. Such characteristics are not acceptable by today's standards since it's all to easy to fix. With that tire...now that I know there's another one there lol, there's no prob at all. :)

Hehe didn't mention the short between 5-6 cuz Wint already made a note of it, and you acknowledged it.

As for the the little cut between cp's 11 & 12, I don't think you gain any time there since you're catching air using that route. Should you negate it? Judgement call. It could be that leaving it in would force ppl to learn that in fact it only looks like a short lol.

As for changing cp's around again, I think I'd like to see it with the updates you made up to this point before considering such a thing.

And yes, we would race this baby - there's no doubt in my mind. As a matter of fact, it would definitely make our upcoming Always Podded List overhaul, which is due Aug 15. It's a high-intensity, fast-paced track that will go over big in the Zone. Trust me on that! :)

Lookin forward to seeing how this one progesses!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:42 pm 
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SLO_COPE wrote:
I think I'd like to see it with the updates you made up to this point before considering such a thing.


The next update IS the Expo upload... so you're able to look at it very critically now! 8)

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