MTM2.com

A forum for mtm2 discussion
FAQ :: Search :: Members :: Groups :: Register
Login
It is currently Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:10 am



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Bigfoot 14 by Jqoc5
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 1:30 am 
Member

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:22 am
Posts: 37
Truck: <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/trucks/bigfoot14chassis478x354.jpg','win','scrollbars=no,left=80,top=80,width=498,height=374')">Bigfoot 14</a> (chassis)
Maker: Jqoc
Class: Scratch built
Verts: <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/stats/bigfoot14chassisstats.gif','win','scrollbars=yes,left=20,top=20,width=670,height=600')">2895/1768/4663</a>
Faces: 4391/2424/6815
Txtrs: 5/1/6
Podzip: Yes
Animated Textures: No
Allow Reflections: No
Allow Truck Reflections: No

Truck: <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/trucks/bigfoot14superduty478x354.jpg','win','scrollbars=no,left=80,top=80,width=498,height=374')">Bigfoot 14</a> (2001 Super Duty)
Maker: Jqoc
Class: Scratch built
Verts: <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/stats/bigfoot14superdutystats.gif','win','scrollbars=yes,left=20,top=20,width=670,height=600')">4437/1768/6205</a>
Faces: 7375/2424/9799
Txtrs: 7/1/8
Podzip: Yes
Animated Textures: No
Allow Reflections: No
Allow Truck Reflections: No
Readme: Yes

Download both: <a href="http://mtm2.com/~trucks/dl.cgi?dl=882" target="_self">521</a>k


Truly stunning model work. We were floored with the detail. And while the expo was not specifically about replicas or modeling skills as they pertain to the creation of facsimiles of, or conformance to, existing monsters - getting bogged down on <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfoot14_mar00_640.jpg','win','scrollbars=no,left=30,top=10,width=660,height=500')">picayune details</a> about which paint job a truck had at one time or another, or about the gap around Jqoc's grille and tailgate, or again that the frame is short a cross member detract from a maker's fine work and can often dwindle into personal perspective and subjective points of view, none of which can lead to any sort of productive conclusion about the truck - it should be noted that Jqoc has done an exceptional job on Bigfoot 14.

<center><img src="http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootbody.jpg" width="600" height="202"></center>

Additional graphic comparisons of the <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootchassis.jpg','win','scrollbars=no,left=80,top=80,width=546,height=222')">chassis</a>, <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootframe.jpg','win','scrollbars=no,left=80,top=80,width=536,height=222')">frame</a> and a modified BigDOGGe <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootengine.jpg','win','scrollbars=no,left=80,top=80,width=554,height=222')">engine</a> show the accuracy of the model to the original truck probably as well and as easily as we could hope to describe with words, and since we have other things to talk about we'll let the images speak for themselves and confirm the quality of Jqoc's replica.

Jqoc states in the readme.txt file it took him three months to create this pair of trucks (the download zip contains two merged trucks - body on and body off versions) and it's obvious most of that time has been spent on painstaking attention to detail. And therein lies the rub. He's fully aware as he tells us "both trucks are face and vertice intensive" and much to our chagrin we must add that that is an incredible understatement, one which stems from a complete disregard for mtm2's inner workings and that will lead to all sorts of in-game problems and in some cases even crash the game.

Let's start at square one of mtm model making. The unit of currency in Monster Truck Madness 2 is the Vertex. Commercial 3D software developers go gaga over the polygon, and too many textures in our game can most definitely cause some chugging. But none of that matters. The bottom line as far as models go, and hence trucks too, is the Vertex. Face types bear on render attributes only. Game performance in this regard is controlled entirely by the vertex and nothing else. It is common knowledge that the truck reflection threshold is precisely 1000 body vertices. It is equally understood that the track reflection threshold is in the neighborhood of 2000 body vertices. And lastly, anything higher than a smidgeon over 3000 is no longer acceptable to be run in the game. Leave there be no doubt to anybody after reading this that in mtm2, the vertex is king. You can count polygons (faces) day and night all to no avail. The demon that makes this game tick is the vertex.

With this in mind, the Super Duty's <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootinbinedit3.gif','win','scrollbars=no,left=80,top=80,width=492,height=326')">4437 vertices</a> is so far across the line, and causes so many problems, that, despite this truck's near perfect construction, it's hardly worth running at all.

First up, after concluding a race all checkin screens that display a truck (<a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootscrnwinnercircle.jpg','win','scrollbars=no,left=30,top=10,width=660,height=500')">winner's circle</a>, <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootscrnhalloffame.jpg','win','scrollbars=no,left=30,top=10,width=660,height=500')">hall of fame</a>, <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootscrndrivercheckin.jpg','win','scrollbars=no,left=30,top=10,width=660,height=500')">driver checkin</a>) render the truck with the last used weather mask color palette:

<center><a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootweatherpalette.html','win','scrollbars=yes,left=10,top=10,width=750,height=538')"><img src="http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootclears.jpg" width="280" height="278" border="0"></a></center>

And the problem is a persistent one. Even if you switch trucks, the display trouble remains until you exit the game.

<center><a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootcarolinacrusher.jpg','win','scrollbars=no,left=30,top=10,width=660,height=500')"><img src="http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootcarolinacrushers.jpg" width="280" height="278" border="0"></a></center>

This display can also extend to <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootscrnreplay.jpg','win','scrollbars=no,left=30,top=10,width=660,height=500')">instant replay</a>, or even back into the <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootscrningame.jpg','win','scrollbars=no,left=30,top=10,width=660,height=500')">game</a> itself. Not only that, but exiting the game won't always reset the problem. There have been occasions in which the graphic display has <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootmultigamesessions.jpg','win','scrollbars=no,left=30,top=10,width=660,height=500')">spanned several game sessions</a>, thus forcing a reboot. We're unsure if this is what Jqoc is referring to when he warns "neither truck will run properly in software mode" but we can find no justification for this claim since the truck is capable of operating when using <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootsoftwaremode.gif','win','scrollbars=no,left=30,top=10,width=660,height=500')">software mode</a>.

A further problem we discovered is that the Super Duty truck will wash out the <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootdropdusk1.html','win','scrollbars=no,left=30,top=10,width=660,height=500')">dusk</a> and <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootdropnight1.html','win','scrollbars=no,left=30,top=10,width=660,height=500')">night</a> backdrops. Stock and other custom vehicles do not interfere with the <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootdropdusk2.html','win','scrollbars=no,left=30,top=10,width=660,height=500')">dusk</a> and <a href="javascript:void(0)"onClick="window.open('http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2003/pics/reviews/bigfootdropnight2.html','win','scrollbars=no,left=30,top=10,width=660,height=500')">night</a> drops.

Finally, although not experienced by everyone, there have been reports of Super Duty causing illegal operation errors when exiting the game. And all this can happen merely if the truck is used as an opponent. It just has to be in the track for it to trigger these problems.

The wheels too suffer for an over-indulgence of vertices. At 385, one tire alone uses more vertices than the high detail body of a stock truck, and the combined 1540 exceeds reason and no doubt contributes to frame rates reportedly as low as 4fps at times.

In the end, we could speak about handling or headlight beams or there's a taillight buried underneath the driver's seat or that most frame components are mapped to flat unshaded textures, but unless you want to load it in the game just to admire it, we're sad to say there's nothing here too look at. Jqoc is an mtmer from <a href="http://mtm2.com/~tracks/search.cgi?search=jqoc" target="_blank">way back</a> but seems to have developed into a modeler who ran across the expo, and wanted to show his skills, which is perfecly fine and we're glad to host his work for him. The quanity of vertices, however, tell us that he didn't know the technical requirements of the game, but he should have - especially since information and advice are abundantly available. We can only hope he takes these comments and observations in stride and will continue to produce such fine looking work for future mtm projects, tho they be heavily pruned vertex-wise. He'll surely have many fans if he does.

<br><br>

Postscript. Jqoc has updated the trucks to include a few additional features. However, none impact on the above review. For reference, the old zip file name is <i>bigfoot142001superdutyupdatedbyjqoc.zip</i> and the new on is called <i>JQBF14SD.zip</i>.

<br><br>


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:56 am 
Member

Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:37 am
Posts: 16
well i'll definitely admit that i went way over the top with the amount of vertices (i had just learned about mtm2's limits a few days before the expo), but i have to disagree with this statement:

> causes so many problems, that, despite this truck's near perfect construction, it's hardly worth running at all.

i've been driving and editing it myself for over a month now on three separate computers (1 of them low-end, and another my father's old business laptop) and out of all the bugs mentioned, i've experienced only one of those problems on one PC, and it didn't affect playability in any way. the bug was the weather mask palette problem, and to back up my statement:

> neither truck will run properly in software mode

this problem only occurrs whenever the trucks are rendered in software mode (such as the driver check-in screen, the minimized instant replay, etc.) and although it's occasionally possible to run it in software mode, more often then not the track floods with the weather palette when in that mode. however, this problem never affects hardware rendered graphics.

> This display can also extend to instant replay, or even back into the game itself.

what i noticed you didn't mention here was whether the screencap of that flooded track was rendered using software mode or not. please clarify this.

as for the other bugs, i've personally never experienced them myself, though i doubt that they would affect the playability of the trucks. illegal operation errors that occur when exiting the game shouldn't be a problem (since you happen to be exiting the game anyway), and washed out backdrops shouldn't make the trucks unplayable. as for the 4 fps frame rate, it's kind of hard to imagine what kind of hardware was used to get to that point; i tested both trucks on Zo0N Kitchen 2 (which is one of the most graphically intensive tracks i've ever seen) using a 450 mhz pentium, nvidia tnt 16 meg vid card, and averaged a framerate of around 20 fps. now i realize that not everyone uses the same hardware setup, though unless there's a conflict of some sort i'd say you'd have to have a pretty slow computer to get 4fps.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:13 pm 
You Gonna Eat That?
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 2:01 pm
Posts: 923
Location: Nebraska
That was our point for saying what was said Jqoc, even though it may run great on your pc, doesn't mean it is compatible with everyone elses.

Take my Tsunami Terror truck, it has a very high vert count, most people don't have any problem running it. But I have guys that have the same exact pc that I have, that have problems running it.
That truck is close to 4000 Verts. Which is WAY too high for the limitations of this game. But some pc's have no troubles. You totally went beyond the realm of the game's limitations.

It's a great truck, but just way too far over the top. You should have done some research on the game before you started building it. We could have warned you about what the game can handle, and the many do's and don'ts of this very out of date game.

_________________
Rep Fan's Garage


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:00 am 
ok, i understand and agree with what you're saying (and i've certainly learned my lesson about planning my time wisely); but as far as the review goes, i felt that what was said was unfair because it gave the impression that every single PC that would run my trucks would experience almost all of the mentioned problems, and that it would be pointless to try and run. which obviously isn't true (for the record, i got my trucks running fine on three PCs, not just one). what your review also failed to mention was this statement in my readme file:

> i have been able to get [the trucks] to run fairly decently on my low-end computer, although it's not certain how it'll react to other computers.

which basically awknowledges the fact that although it is possible to get them to run properly, it may not work on everyone's computer. i felt that this should have at least been mentioned in the review.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:04 am 
Member

Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:37 am
Posts: 16
hmm . . . my cookies were deleted . . .

anyway that's me speaking up there ^^


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:49 am 
Glow Ball
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 02, 1999 7:00 pm
Posts: 8
Jqoc,

We ran the trucks on a range of computers in a variety of conditions. (the persistent display problem mentioned above was hardware mode on a TNT card).

Regarding reviews, we tried to present a balanced assessment that touched on the strengths and weaknesses of each truck, and offer tips and suggestions where appropriate.

> much to our chagrin we must ...

In fairness to all entries, we must try to be objective in our evaluation. By necessity, that means mentioning the downside as well as the upside. We value the efforts of everybody who entered and it brings us no pleasure to relay that a truck crashed somebody's game. But we cannot ignore this either. Please understand we are in no way bashing this truck, and especially not its maker. By the same token, we make no apologies for reporting what we found. We take pride in, and strive for, as unbiased treatment of all things mtm as we can possibly do. Our greatest hope is that you can use the feedback we've provided and incorporate it into future projects. In the meantime, you've given us an incredible truck; there's no need to be defensive about it at all.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 7:45 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 2:01 pm
Posts: 247
Location: surrey, bc, canada
as stated above, this is an incedible model but is way over the limits for MTM2.


>> and washed out backdrops shouldn't make the trucks unplayable.

with the washed-out BG, the track is uplayable.

>>as for the 4 fps frame rate, it's kind of hard to imagine what kind of hardware was used to get to that point; i tested both trucks on Zo0N Kitchen 2....though unless there's a conflict of some sort i'd say you'd have to
have a pretty slow computer to get 4fps.

also as stated not always working with all pc's. i have a 1.3 ghz with a Nvidia vanta 16mb vid card and i came up with the blue washed-out BG's and also ran down around 4fps at points, on C98. i wouldnt dare run this truck on ZK2.

_________________
Leg's Auto Emporium most anything that you'll need to make a truck!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:04 am 
Member

Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:37 am
Posts: 16
look, i wasn't trying to deny the fact that these bugs exist, nor was i expecting to get a biased review (nor do i think that this one is); all i was trying to point out was that my trucks do work fine on some computers, which is not what your review gave the impression of:

> unless you want to load it in the game just to admire it, we're sad to say there's nothing here too look at.

now what i'm disappointed about is that the entire review was about the trucks' models and the bugs that come with them, rather than about the truck itself, though if you're saying that that's all you had to work with due to all the bugs you encountered on every PC you tested it on, then i'd completely understand where you're coming from and i'd have to say that your review is as fair as it could ever get. but if you happened to be able to drive it without any problems on at least one computer, id be very disappointed that you didn't even mention that at all.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:49 am 
You Gonna Eat That?
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 2:01 pm
Posts: 923
Location: Nebraska
It didn't happen on every pc, it ran fine on mine.

But the fact still remains, it is way too laggy for MTM2.

Trust me, I know laggy. [:P]

_________________
Rep Fan's Garage


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group